Musings of an Orthodox Jew

Thoughts on Torah and the Jewish world today.

Who is a Jew?

For those unaware of it, I recently started a blog related to exposing the tactics of “messianics jews” called Messianics Exposed (thus the link amongst those in the frame on the right). I made a post there recently which I have decided is relevant here, though slightly expanded on in terms of making it more universal though it is still very much focussed on what the “messianic jews” try to claim.

So, here is the question: Who is a Jew? On the surface, it would seem that it should be easy- surely a Jew is one who thinks he is a Jew? After all- some argue that if someone chooses to identify with, and take on the behaviours of, a group, they have the right to identify with that group. Others might be more restrictive and say- anyone that is going to be prosecuted for being a part of the group is surely part of the group and thus include anyone the Nazis would have prosecuted. The problem with both these simplistic approaches is that it ignores one very important factor, that of the definition from group itself! So, what is the Jewish definition?

Halachicly, Judaism defines someone as Jewish if their MOTHER (matrilineal descent) is Jewish or if they have a halachicly (according to Jewish law) valid conversion. Reform Judaism in the USA (outside of the USA most congregations follow the law of matrilineality) extends this definition a bit to include patrilineal descent to a limited extent- in other words, they only accept patrilineal descent combined with living a Jewish life and identification with the Jewish community (by Reform definitions, not Orthodox.) Thus the individual should observe life cycle events, be a member of community and such though there is no requirement for kashrut, tzitzit, tefillin etc). Since I am Orthodox, and this is an Orthodox blog, I am going to put aside the Reform in the USA’s recognition of patrilineal descent and just state that it is not accepted by Orthodox and leave it there (and if I have misstated it in anyway, I will welcome clarification from Reform readers and fix what I have stated. I do not pretend to be an expert on Reform or Conservative Judaism).

So, within Orthodox Judaism we have two definitions of a Jew- the one with a Jewish mother and the convert. Where do we learn this from? Matrilineal descent is learned from the Torah and we see it being explictly applied in the Tanakh. We learn it from the Torah in Devarim (Deuterenomy) Chapter 7

. You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son. ג. וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן בָּם בִּתְּךָ לֹא תִתֵּן לִבְנוֹ וּבִתּוֹ לֹא תִקַּח לִבְנֶךָ:
4. For he will turn away your son from following Me, and they will worship the gods of others, and the wrath of the Lord will be kindled against you, and He will quickly destroy you. ד. כִּי יָסִיר אֶת בִּנְךָ מֵאַחֲרַי וְעָבְדוּ אֱ־לֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וְחָרָה אַף יְ־הֹוָ־ה בָּכֶם וְהִשְׁמִידְךָ מַהֵר:

Now, verse 3 explictly states that neither Jewish men or women can marry non-Jews. However, in verse 4 there is a concern that the husband of the Jewish woman will entice the children into leaving Judaism, but there is no reciprocal concern that the wife of a Jewish man will entice the children out of Judaism- why not? The children are not Jewish. Rashi addresses this here in his commentary on the Torah and it is discussed in the Talmud in masechta Kiddushin daf 68b.

Where do we learn this from in the Tanakh? In Sefer Ezra (the Book of Ezra) in Ketuvim, we read the following in chapter 10 (see the chapter further for details):

3. And now, let us make a covenant with our God to cast out all the wives and their offspring, by the counsel of the Lord and those who hasten to [perform] the commandment of our God, and according to the Law it shall be done.


10. And Ezra the priest arose and said to them, “You have dealt treacherously, and you have taken in foreign wives to add to Israel’s guilt. י.
11. And now, confess to the Lord, the God of your forefathers, and do His will, and separate from the peoples of the land and from the foreign wives.” יא.
12. Then the entire congregation replied and said in a loud voice: “Yes! We must do as you say!


16. The people of the exile did so. Ezra the priest [and certain] men, heads of the fathers’ houses after the house of their fathers, separated themselves, all of them [known] by name, and they convened on the first day of the tenth month to investigate the matter. טז.
17. And they completed everything concerning the men who had brought in foreign women, until the first day of the first month.

Now, we read that the men put the wives AND their children from those wives aside. The wives it can be easily understood that they were not Jewish- after all, it was only the non-Jewish women they were required to seperate from. The children are not explicitly stated. So why would the men seperate from them? If they were Jewish, they would be obligated to educate them as Jews, something that would be difficult to impossible if the children were put aside! The answer to that, is that these children were not Jewish and thus there was no obligation to educate them, or to bring them up as Jews!

Another less direct source goes even further back- to the time of Avraham! Where do we see that? Avraham had three wives and eight children. Hagar was an Egyptian and idol worshiper- Ishmael is not seen as Jewish. Keturah is not seen as being a complete follower of Avraham’s religious views and her children are not Jewish. Sarah is the only one of the three wives who completely absorbs Avraham’s faith and worships G-d in the same manner as he does- her son Yitzchak IS Jewish. Now, all eight children have the same father – but only one mother is considered Jewish, and only her son and his descendants are considered Jewish! Thus we can see that even in the time of Avraham, the father did not dictate the religion of the child, but the mother. If it had been the father, then all eight would have been amongst the patriarchs of the Jewish faith!

We see this with the two children of Yitzchak as well. Esav marries women that are not acceptable, that are idol worshippers – Ya’akov marries righteous women who takes up his beliefs and worships G-d as a Jewess. None of the children of Esav are considered Jewish- the children of Ya’akov are considered Jewish since his wives had all converted to Judaism! Again- it is the status of the mother that confers Jewishness to the children- not the status of the father!

Thus we have shown the first of these requirements is satisfied from the Torah and Tanakh. How about a convert? From where do we know that the convert is Jewish? Simply put- the Torah frequently includes the convert as a Jew- emphasising that they are part of the community (see below). Probably one of the earliest mentions of the convert as a member of the community is found in Shemot (exodus) Chapter 12

47. The entire community of Israel shall make it. מז. כָּל עֲדַת יִשְׂרָאֵל יַעֲשׂוּ אֹתוֹ:
48. And should a proselyte reside with you, he shall make a Passover sacrifice to the Lord. All his males shall be circumcised, and then he may approach to make it, and he will be like the native of the land, but no uncircumcised male may partake of it. מח. וְכִי יָגוּר אִתְּךָ גֵּר וְעָשָׂה פֶסַח לַי־הֹוָ־ה הִמּוֹל לוֹ כָל זָכָר וְאָז יִקְרַב לַעֲשֹׂתוֹ וְהָיָה כְּאֶזְרַח הָאָרֶץ וְכָל עָרֵל לֹא יֹאכַל בּוֹ:
49. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who resides in your midst.” מט. תּוֹרָה אַחַת יִהְיֶה לָאֶזְרָח וְלַגֵּר הַגָּר בְּתוֹכְכֶם:

Verse 47 states the entire community of Bnei Yisrael makes the the Korban Pesach (and the prior verses enumerated those excluded). In verse 48 it explictly expands the community to include the convert and verse 48 then again combines the two into a single unit by statiung that the law for a born Jew and a convert are identical- we do not differntiate.

When it comes to seeing this in the Tanakh, the most famous example is that of Rut, the ancestress of King David. How much more proof do you need than an explicit declaration that the ancestress of the line from which the mashiach will ultimately come is a convert! Even more, the Talmud in masechta Yevamos uses the speech by Rut to Naomi to derive the laws and requirements for a Kosher conversion! And thus the second way of being Jewish is enumerated and proven through the Torah and Tanakh.

Are there any other ways in which a person could be considered Jewish? From the Orthodox POV – NO. Thats it, these are the two only ways and no one else is considered to be Jewish (the recognition of Karaites as Jews is not a contradiction to this- but rather seen from the following angle- the original Karaites were Jews and until very recently did not allow conversion. Thus even though they recignise patrilineal descent, by default all Karaites also had matrilineal descent satisfying the Orthodox requirements. With the recent decision by Karaites to allow conversion, this stance may need to be relooked at since it raises two questions: One the validity of their conversions and the issue of patrilineal descent when the mother is the convert)

One often sees “messianic jews” making the claim that since they were born Jewish, they remain Jewish regardless of what religion they follow. They claim that regardless of what they do, they cannot loose their Jewishness. In essence, they insist Jews are a race, and one cannot loose ones race through converting to a new religion. Of course, the vast majority of people in “messianic jewish” communities have zero connection to Judaism- the estimates of people that are actually halachicly Jewish within their communities ranges from between 1% at the bottom end, to 9% at the top end. As always, there are a few communities with a majority of former Jews in their ranks, and others where no members have any real connection to Judaism. But what about that 1-9% of members that used to be classified as Jews? Are they members of a “Jewish race”?

You have to wonder where they get this idea of a Jewish race from. It is not from the Torah which has many stories of converts- from the time of Avraham where Eleizer his servant had converted, as had the hundreds of men and their families that served as Avraham’s battle with the five kings, to the leaving of Egypt where the eruv rav (“mixed multitude”) left Egypt with the Jews, but they had disappeared by the time the Jews entered Israel 40 years later. Where did they go? They either left the nation during the travels in the desert or converted to Judaism and joined with the tribes of those they converted under. The Tanakh has examples as well; the most famous being the conversion of Ruth (and which is used as the Talmud, in masechta Yevamos, as the template to teach us what a valid conversion entails). We even see that Moshe married a convert- Miriam complains about his Black wife, for which Miriam is punished with tzora’as; but we see that Tziporah had obviously converted and had been taught by Moshe as when G-d came to kill Moshe for not circumcising his sons Tziporah knew what to do (Shemot (Exodus) Chapter 4 v24-27).

The status of converts and their descendants as being the equal of every Jew is probably exemplified by the first verse of Torah that a child learns and which is sung joyfully at his upshiernes (a custom many have of only cutting a boy’s hair for the first time at age 3) from Devarim (Deuteronomy) chapter 33:

4. The Torah that Moshe commanded us is a legacy for the congregation of Ya’akov. ד. תּוֹרָה צִוָּה לָנוּ מֹשֶׁה מוֹרָשָׁה קְהִלַּת יַעֲקֹב

Why does it talk about the “congregation of Ya’akov (Jacob aka Yisrael aka Israel)? Simple- it is an all inclusive term for all that believe in G-d, convert and born Jew alike. It is not Bnei Yisrael that some could argue would be only those descended from Ya’akov! Similarly, we read in Devarim (Deuteronomy) Chapter 6 the most fundamental declaration of the Jewish faith

4. Hear, O Yisrael: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. ד. שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶחָד:

Again, it is Yisrael, the nation, not Bnei Yisrael, just those descended from Ya’akov. It is all inclusive, the entire nation is addressed; we are all equally required to recognise the uniqueness, indivisibility and singularity that is G-d.

So where does this idea of a Jewish race originate? It is not an old one, it did not exist in the times of the Temples or even through most of history. In fact, we can trace its origins mainly to the 19th century, and the works of the early proponents of racial theories in which different groups of people had different values due to their “race”. It was developed from here by the Nazi’s, and had the inevitable consequence of the holocaust. Why do I state that it was inevitable? There is an excellent chapter in the book “Hitler’s willing executioner’s” by Daniel Goldenhagen in which he traces the development of anti-Semitism from its early roots where it was based on religion, fear of the unknown and politics to racial anti-Semitism. In his book, Daniel Goldenhagen makes the point that in the past genocide was not the aim of anti-Semitism, the aim was conversion- getting them to be the same, to convert to the religion, to accept the ruling authorities (who frequently claimed divine right to rule). A person was seen as a human being first- their Jewishness something they could change. Racial anti-Semitism altered this equation- one cannot change ones race, thus merely converting the Jews was no longer an option, and if they were an inferior race bringing the entire of humanity down, the inevitable solution had to be genocide. Note: I am NOT calling “messianic jews” Nazis, merely stating that their seeing Judaism as being racial originated with Nazis.

So, if the “messianic jews” do not utilise the Nazi’s justification, what do they use? Here we see how they abuse Jewish sources to try and support their claim. They take a comment in the Talmud masechta Sanhedrin out of context- in reference to a passage in Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah)- the sages state that even when Israel sins, it remains Israel and does not loose its covenant with G-d. Their simplistic understanding of the text, and ignoring context and the rest of the law on this matter, leads them into a serious error here. How so? Yes- they remain Jewish- and if they do not repent they are PUNISHED! We see this clearly- the Jews were punished for their sinning by the Temple being destroyed, so an individual who sins and does not repent is punished. The last chapter of masechta Sanhedrin, Chapter 11 called chapter Chelek, starts with a Mishnah listing those who are punished with kares (in other words, are seperated from the community in this world and from G-d in the world to come, the worst possible punishment). This list includes a Jew who takes on any foreign beliefs as part of his serving G-d! It includes those who read the books of other religions to serve G-d, it includes those who deliberately misuse a knowledge of Torah to lead others into sin. In other words, there are multiple reasons why a member of “messianic judaism” would suffer from kares. The Rishonim (the Rabbis in the generation after the Talmud was sealed until the time the Shuklkhan Aruch was written) vary in how strictly we separate the people from the community. All place them outside of the community and unable to participate in the community in any manner whatsoever- but the ease with which they are allowed to rejoin the community is debated. Some allow them to return with a simple declaration and public acceptance of Judaism, some require mikvah and a declaration before a Beis Din (court) of at least three judges. The Rema in Shulkhan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 268:12) and the Rambam in Hilchos Avodas Kochavim rule the person completely separated from Judaism and thus needing a full conversion including mikvah and Beis Din before the person can return. In the modern era we generally rule according to HaRav Moshe Feinstein that in the modern era the vast majority of converts come from backgrounds devoid of proper Jewish education and thus we treat them as a “captured child” i.e. a child that was captured by non-Jews and grew up with no knowledge of Torah and is thus deemed innocent of transgressions of the law. Some still require mikveh and declaration before a Beis Din (though not a full conversion), but most just allow the person to repent and return to Judaism.

So, here is the crux of the matter- a Jew who converts to ANY other religion ceases to be a part of the Jewish community, ceases to be seen as Jewish and ceases to have any meaningfull connection to Judaism and the Torah. What does the verse in Yirmiyahu and the Talmud in masechta Sanhedrin teach? That the person retains a connection to the fact that they were Jewish- and are thus always JUDGED and PUNISHED as a Jew! Even if their new religion is 100% compliant with the seven laws of Bnei Noach and a non-Jew would be considered a ger tzedek, a former Jew in the other religion would be punished with Kares and not considered Jewish while alive! So, when “messianic jews” try to claim ‘once a Jew, always a Jew’, they neglect to mention the full extent of this law- and that they remain Jews only for the purposes of judgement and punishment!

July 5, 2010 Posted by | Current affairs, Messianic, Other Torah, Talmud, Torah | , , , , , , , , , | 21 Comments

The onset of the Messianic era

As a resul of various questions on Yahoo! Answers, I have written this short outline of the various scenarios about the onset of the Messianic era. It seems that many people, even within the Jewish community, have an understanding shaped by the popular images fo Christian mythology and the ideas of Armageddon. As such, I hope to try and make the Jewish POV clearer and hope that anyone spotting any mistakes, or finding any areas requiring clarification, will let me know and help to improve this post.

Unlike many end time scenarios, there is not a single manner in which the mashiach can arrive in Judaism- but rather different scenarios depending on the state of the world. These differences in the onset also explain some of the contradictory prophecies: thus you find in Daniel it sounds like the Mashiach will arrive miraculously, but in Zachariah he arrives “lowly riding on a donkey”, in one instance it is miraculous and instant, in the other slow (riding a donkey is not a rapid means of transport) and through small natural steps (a donkey is a natural means of transport as opposed to the clouds of glory in Daniel).  For this reason many commentators, including Rambam in Hiilchos Melachim, see the coming of Mashiach not necessarily as a miraculous supernatural event, but as a natural progression of human history.  More differences occur in the literature, including whether or not there is a war between Gog and Magog, and the oft abused by the “messianic jews”, concept of “Mashiach ben Yosef” who preceeds Mashiach ben David.

A note before I start: A lot of this adapted from various writings and I don’t have the exact references on hand- primary sources I am using include the Talmud (masechta Sanhedrin) and Rambam Hilchos Malkhut.

The ways in which Mashiach can come;
There are basically three scenarios in which we see the arrival of mashiach, essentially they can be seen as the good, the bad and the ugly or deserving, the time is reached and the “saving humanity from itself” scenarios.

Essentiall this is the case when humanity sinks so low in degradation that it has lost all elements of spirituality, like Bnei Yisrael when in Egypt.  Mashiach arrives to redeem us early in order to prevent us sinking so low that redemption is not possible, just as Moshe was sent to redeem Bnei Yisrael before the reached the last levels of impurity.  However, in this scenario there is a need for humanity to undergo through a “cleansing” and it is in this scenario that we see the war between Gog and Magog resulting in massive deaths and a conflict that ends up engulfing the world.

It is also in this scenario that we see the Mashiach ben Yosef.  Mashiach ben Yosef is a military leader, chosen to lead the Jews and to protect them while the conflagration is under way.  He is a descendant from the tribe of Ephraim and it is his job to save and preserve the Jewish nation.  As this is a time of cleansing and purification, this conflagration lasts for no more than a year, just as the souls time in Gehinnom lasts for no more than a year. Thus the coming of Mashiach ben Yosef preceeds that of Mashiach ben David by at most a year.

After the war, Eliyahu arrives to help prepare the world for the arival of Mashiach ben David.  Mashiach ben David comes to rebuild Israel, the Temple, gather all the Jews into Israel etc.  It is a completely natural set of events and the peace and acceptance of Mashiach as king is a natural thing for the world.  How the miraculous events such as the resurrection of the dead comes about is subject to debate.  Some say in this scenario it is a purely spiritual resurrection, only the righteous come to their reward and they enjoy a spiritual life in which they can enjoy all the rewards of both the spiritual and material world, with those living in the physical world earning their share when they die. Things such as eradication of poverty, disease etc are seen as the results of human intervention (technology in our world view) and the change in heart as one of lessons learnt and being becoming wiser.

The BAD:
This is the scenario where Mashiach comes not because we deserve his arrival but purely because the time has arrived for him to come. Various mystical sources derive this to be in the year 6000- or 23o years from now (as we are in the year 5770). This timing is derived from the statement in Tehillim that for G-d a thousand years is like a day thus like there were 6 days in the creation of the world prior to the Shabbos, there are 6000 years in the preparation of the world for its Shabbos, the time of Mashiach.  However, as we are not allowed to calculate the time of arrival of Mashiach, we can only speculate and hope that this is the furthest out: if the day comes and goes, it does not mean that Mashiach will not come, merely that our understanding is not complete.

In this scenario there is no war between Gog and Magog as the cleansing and purification of the world is not needed.  This also means that there is no Mashiach ben Yosef as a military leader for the Jewish people is not needed.   It should be noted that some authorities disagree and see the war between Gog and Magog occuring even here(with the presence of Mashiach ben Yosef), but see the war as more limited and possibly not encompassing the entire world, the cleansing and purification being lessened just as it is for a soul needing less purification in the world to come.  Others see Mashaich ben Yosef as arriving, but being a more subtle influence that guides the world into the necessary path and the flowering of the messianic era over an extended period of time.  Eliyahu HaNavi preceeds the coming of Mashiach ben David, sorting the kosher from the non-kosher and resolving the outstanding questions of halachah.  The differing elements of the times of Mashiach take place naturally over time- first the re-establishment of the Davidian monarchy, then the building of the Temple, followed by the ingathering of the Jewish exiles and the re-establishment of the Sanhedrin.  Some commentaries see these things happening as a natural events even before the onset of the Messianic era- as we have had to o through the full time and wait for the nature of the world (spiritual and physical) to redeem us, so these things happen through natural means. As in the scenaria above, how the dead are resurrected and whether the miracles are overt is a subject of debate.

Why do I refer to this scenario as “the bad”? After all, it is happening as it should be and as it was planned!  The essence here is that it happens not because of anything we did.  Essentially there is a timer running, if we do things properly, it should never reach zero, we should not be reliant on the natural course of events.  Thus, in essence, we have failed to fulfill the promise and potential we have- we have failed to elevate ourselves to a point where we could ignore the timer and merit a miraculous event.  We may have done something towards this, we may as individuals achieved and become righteous, but as a society as whole we have not achieved- we have not lived up to our potential, have not managed to reach the ultimate point of looking after each other.  “Kol Yisrael arazim zeh la zeh”- “All of Israel is responsible one for another”.  This is not just physically, but as a requirement to teach and elevate all of klal yisrael- and in this we would have failed.

The ultimate scenario- the one in which we elevate ourselves to such a point as to merit the immediate arrival of Mashiach!  Obviously in this scenario there cannot be a war between Gog and Magog a his arrival is immediate and world peace comes as a miraculous process.  Thus there is also no Mashiach ben Yosef as his coming is dependent on their being a need for a military leader.  Another difference here is that Eliyahu HaNavi arrives AFTER the Mashicah rather than before.

In this scenario events occur miraculously.  Here is where midrash that state the third Temple will miraculously descend from the heavens takes place, here we have the dead awakening and rolling to Yerushalayim for the final judgement.  The eradication of poverty and disease, the world peace etc are miraculous in nature, coming not form human endeavor but as gifts from G-d. Here is where the righteous sit and dine at the table feasting on the flesh of the Leviathan, the light from the heavens visible to all.

March 8, 2010 Posted by | Other Torah, Torah | , , , , , , , | 3 Comments

Yom Kippur 5770- as the time approaches

So, its erev Yom Kippur, I’ve come back from Mikveh and I’m sweating over the drosha’s I will have to give, all three of them!  so, while organising my thoughts I will put at leats one of those droshas down here.

In sefer Darchei Mussar Rabbi Neeman brings the following idea” al cheit shechatanu lefenechah – for the sins we sinned before you.  Where does he place the emphasis?  For the sins we sinned before YOU.  The first step to being able to repent is a realisation that we are standing before G-d.  If we do not have this realisation, if we cannot understand the import of needing to put ourselves before G-d, that everything is found before G-d, then we are guilty of one sin- fleeing from G-d.  He compares this to a soldier- he gets minor punihsments for small things- for untied shoes, for his uniform being messy, for not marching properly.  However, if he flees from the army he recieves a major punishment- if it is in battle, there are many time sin history when desertion in the face of the enemy was punihsable by death! 

Similarly for us;  if we realise we stand before G-d, that we are in his presence, their is space for us to be forgiven for our sins, we can get all the inor punishments many of which will be overlooked since, just as the hero of a battle will often be excused for minor infractions- so G-d can forgive us when we lose minor skirishes with the yetzer hara if we make sure that over all we are winning the battle.  However, if we flee from the presence of G-d, if we cannot understand and acknowledge that he is the king of kings and that we stand before him, then like the soldier going awol or deserting, we will receive a major punishment – an dall the minor infractions we have will be added on top of that.

This idea raises the centrality of what Teshuvah is about.  Primarily, teshuvah is about taking responsibility- realising that we have damaged the relationship between ourselves and G-d through our actions and thus have to repair that relationship.  Part of the taking of responsibility is realising that we are not beholden only to ourselves, but that we have a master, G-d, the King of kings, who has a right to demand certain behaviour from us.  Just as the solider has his masters in the army that can dictate how he dresses, how he sleeps, where he sleeps, what he eats etc- so is G-d our master who has the right to tell us how to behave.  Thus, we have to take the responsibility to recognise that his rules are just, that hjis ways are jsut, and that his judgements are just- and that if we have failed to live up to them, he has the right to enact the consequences of those actions on us!

However, as it is brought in Midrash Bereshis Rabbah, the world wasfirst to be  created with the strict divine attribute of Malkhut, justice.  However, G-d realised that the world could not survive if the attirbute of Malkhut was strictly applied, and thus the attribute of Rachamim, mercy, was applied to the creation of the world.  It is for this reason we rejoice when it comes to Yom Kippur- for though it is solemn and we are having our fates sealed, we have are being judged in this world with the attribute of Rachami.  We have an oppotunity to do Teshuvah, and to be forgiven with ease since rachamim rules over the strictness of malkhut in this world.  However, when we die and our neshamah stands before the Kisei HaKavod and is judged for all those things we did not do teshuvah shleimah for in this world- the strict attribute of Malkhut is used!  Thus, Yom Kippur is a day showing the love of Hashem, a day in which hashen gives us an opportunity to repent in this world and to achieve teshuvah without strict justice being applied!


A g’mar chatimah tovah l’kol


Note:  As always, comments, discussions and corrections are welcomed.

September 27, 2009 Posted by | Chagim, Other Torah, Torah | , , , | 1 Comment