Messianic Jews: Are they Jewish?
This is an oft asked question and one you repeated ad nauseum on forums like Yahoo! Answers. The issue always seems to be: are Jews that believe in Jesus still Jewish? Are so called Jews for Jesus, Messianic Jews, “Completed” Jews or one of the myriad other labels such groups use Jewish? So, lets first investigate: who is a Jew?
From the Orthodox point of view it is very easily defined: If your mother was halachicly Jewish, you are Jewish. If you had an Orthodox conversion, you are Jewish. Thats it. The liberal movements vary from this (mostly in that they obviously accept conversions that are not acceptable to Orthodox) and Reform (and the other even more liberal movements) accept patrilineal descent though bonly combined with active participation in the Jewish community.
So, let us now assume that an individual who is actually Jewish by the Jewish definition joins one of the messianic movements (and please note, in the majority of these movements the number of people that are actually Jewish is only a small percentage of the total), what is his status? simply put, they are an apostate, they are outside of the Jewish community and are not considered part of the Jewish people.
But wait you cry- there is a concept in Judaism that one Jewish, either born or converted, you are always Jewish- how can you deny this person their Jewishness? Actually we, don’t deny their Jewishness; note- above I said that they are outside of the Jewish community and people. What practical ramifications does this have?
- They cannot be a member of any Jewish communal organisation (including synagogues)
- They are not counted towards the minimum number of people required for prayer
- They may not lead the congregation in prayer
- They may not receive any honours in synagogue (such as being called to recite the blessings on the Torah, carry the Torah, wrap the Torah, open the ark, say communal blessings such as havdalah, lead the service etc)
- They may not marry a Jew (obviously a civil marriage is always possible but the religious marriage is not allowed)
- They may not participate in any religious functions (such as weddings)
- If they do not repent before they die, they may not be buried in a Jewish cemetary
- If they do not repent before they die the Jewish laws of mourning do not apply to them and the Kaddish (prayer for the dead to help the soul of the deceased) is not said for them
So, what do we mean when we say that they do not loose their Jewishness? In essence. all it means is that the path of repentance is always open to them. If they repent and return to Judaism, they are Jewish without the need for a conversion. There are some opinions that state they need to go to a mikveh, that is where it ends.
In short- no Jew who believes in Jesus (or any other divine, prophetic or semi-divine figure outside of the beliefs of Judaism) remains a member of the Jewish community or people. It is the one thing that all the movements within Judaism agree on, even when they often agree on very little else!
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So, who am I? An average late thirties guy living in Johannesburg, South Africa. I go to work (as a project manager), play with my kids, try to keep the fish in the aquarium alive and try to live as an orthodox Jew. So, I study Daf Yomi and I am trying to also study Hilchos Shabbos through Pirkei Shoshanim (though I have fallen woefully behind in that one!) For fun I read, write (bad fiction, atrocious poetry), play computer games, do a bit of exercise and some martial arts (well, at least I can return to doing martial arts once my knee heals up!).
to contact me privately: allonyoav at yahoo dot com (sorry for the long winded way, just trying to deter too many spam programmes picking it up.)
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Yes they are Jewish, and they will remain Jewish until God Hiself declares otherwise. No yeshivah bocher is going to deny this heritage to a Jew. Its the birthright of any Jew to be a child of God.
You can argue this until the cows come home and I will hold my ground. This is the 21st century and not the dark ages. We are governed by the civil rights laws and by our own bill of rights. Freedom of speech. Freedom of expression and freedom to pray to whatever God we choose. Rabbis are here to protect our rights and to be tolerant.They are not here to point fingers and rain fire and brimstone down on us.
Marc’s Elmer Gantryism is to be rejected. The next time you try to attack my character like this, your comment will not appear. For those not understanding this reference: Elmer Gantry is a character from a novel who turns preacher in order to make money and seduce women. I do believe I have made my point that I will not allow lashon hara on this page. Any further remarks like this and the entire comment is consigned to the garbage bin.
I’m sorry Shoshana- but the reality is that they are NOT Jewish. They are apostates and outside of the Jewish community. It is not denying their heritage, through repentance they are welcomed back with open arms- but a Jew practicing another religion is an apostate, and if they die without repentance, they loose their portion in the world to come and they are punished with kares- spiritual excission, forever denied coming close to the Divine presence.
People can believe what they like, say what they like, pray how they like- it does not mean that the Torah agrees with their choices. The Torah was given as an eternal document, not one subject to the whims of whatever era people lived in. Rabbis are here to protect the Torah and to guide people on how best to live their lives in order to follow it. They are DEFINITELY here to point fingers and tell people when they are involved in a soul destroying action like worshiping foreign Gods
Consider it a victory that Shoshana resorted to a petty attack to try and discredit you with a really ridiculous attack. (I didn’t recognise the reference, but after what you said, I went and looked in wikipedia.)
Anyone with an Orthodox background recognises that your view is the standard Orthodox one. No orthodox community anywhere in the world will recognise a Messianic Jew as anything but a Christian unless they repent. Its only in the liberal movements that anyone would argue that the Torah is secondary to modern wants.
Sorry, just did a minor edit to correct some spelling
Just one more comment before bed time Marc.
I presume you make money. You are not in the IT field for charity I hope.
You do have some form of social life and you are married, so at some time you have, a most normal men , seduced a woman????
So you too are guilty of Lashon Hara……..right????????
Nope- not everyone speaks lashon hara- its your own issue if you feel that every man has to speak lashon hara in order to befriend a woman. You are aware that people can interract without committing lashon hara.
And nope- I’m not in the IT field for charity- in fact I’m not in the IT field at all! (I used to be- but that was a couple of career changes ago). I work to pay the bills like everyone else. And guess what- even in my job I stick to halachah and actually asked a shailah of a Rabbi how I could conduct performance appraisals without contravening the laws of lashon hara. Guess what, it is possible to work, be ethical and conduct your life in accordance to halachah.
Oh, and your other two comments have been consigned to the garbage. I did tell you that lashon hara was not welcome and not allowed.
Ahh, let her go off her rocker. Undoubtedly she has caught the modern disease of thinking that physicality is important at the cost of spirituality. So, undobtedly she is happy to do anything (or believe any line) that lets her fulfill her pysical needs and can’t grasp the concept that other people don’t think (or behave) like that.
Messianic Jews are traitors, they are a cancer that needs to be excised lest it attack the healthy body of Jews. Every Jew they convert into Christianity is another soul lost, anothe rsoul murdered and sentenced to the worst imaginable punishment.
The Rema states clearly that any convert is a traitor- Messianic Jews are not just traitors, but attempt to turn others into traitors as well, how much worse is this than someone who merely afflicts themselves with this cancer?
I suppose calling other religions “cancer” is not Lashon hara. I suppose calling another Jew a traitor is not lashon hara?
Please define lashon hara. It seems only to apply to Jews who dont agree with your minority group of religious fanatics.
Calling a movement aimed at destroying the soul of Jews a cancer is a mild term really. Christianity is not being attacked here- Chaim attacked a movement whose aim is converting Jews and thus leading their souls into Kares. And it seems you need to study the laws of lashon hara- Try reading the “Guard your tongue”- the English translation of “Shmiras Halashon” by the Chofetz Chaim. And if it doesn’t offend your liberal sensitivities- try studying Rambam on the topic. you will find out that speaking harshly of a movement engaged in converting Jews is not just ok, but required if it will prevent others form making the same mistake. Their is no room for accomodation with those attacking Jews by attempting to convert them- their is only room for making sure that other Jews are informed of their activities and they are prevented from further damaging the souls of Jews.
And actually-its the vast majority of Jews that calls Messianic Jews traitors- but Conservative and Reform agree with Orthodox on this issue. Just abotu the only people not doing so are the minority liberal fanatics in reconstructionist and humanistic Judaism.
I am an orthodox Jew. I dont insult my own religious calling.
I will attack the insults to those who have alternate beliefs. Its their right. I am not a Messianic Jew. I dont believe in JC as my Moshiach. I do respect the rights of others. My eyes are not closed by tunnel vision.
Guess it wasn’t you on the MG forum stating that you prayed in a community led by a female Rabbi; that wore a tallis, prayed from the Torah etc? Guess it wasn’t you that posted all those attacks against Orthodox Judaism and saying that Orthodox Judaism had died in the gas chambers of Auschwitz and how we are merely archaic remnants that are dying out? You really should have changed your email before posting here- it was a dead giveaway as to who you are- whether you call yourself by your late mother’s Hebrew name, TexasHick, SilveradoRider or anything else.